| Site links | Letter from Dred Scott - a little excommunication |
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Handling Dred Scott's letter was a team effort involving Rajan Patel, Atheism Central and Steve Locks. Original Message sent to Atheism Central by Rajan Patel From: Dred Scott Dear sir, I visited your website about atheism and fell in love at once. I have yet to visit atheism.org, but will soon do. I was especially interested in the excommunication portion of your site, but have a few questions. First of all, I am only fifteen years old (as of May 7). that complicates things a bit (!), myself not yet being emancipated from my (rather weakly) evangelical Lutheran parents. My dad is a lawyer and a very educated man (he attended Princeton) and I don't understand why he does not see how foolish religion is, but at least my parents don't condemn my ways. Anyhoo, I very much wish to be excommunicated from the Lutheran church, but I was wondering if that can even be done with Lutherans. I was baptized at approximately age 9, but I have refused to be confirmed. My grandparents on my mother's side are religious fanatics, and sometimes my parents force me to attend mass on especially religious days simply to please them. I am hoping that excommunication means that the I can not be allowed inside a church, but that I don't really know. If it doesn't, then I have no real reason to be excommunicated until I am eighteen, unless simple peace of mind is my goal (which nevertheless would be nice!) anyway, I hope you can help! Thanks a bunches and bunches! Dred Scott "nobody owns the pleasure of tones" Hello Dred, I am replying this to you and my friend in the UK. I can't help until June 17 with anything, because final exams are approaching. I hope Mr. Urdaibay can help out. He's more into the 'students' side of this issue than I am. Rajan Hello Dred, It's not going to happen. Excommunication is something done right at the top of the church hierarchy after what is effectively a legal procedure - and a lengthy one at that. You could commit the most heinous crimes and they wouldn't bother with you - except maybe visit you on death row and offer forgiveness or something. Have you considered that such an negative attitude towards Lutheranism might lead to your religiously fanatical grandparents/parents disowning you? It would obviously hurt them to see you openly rejecting their religion - do you want to hurt them that much? If you reject their religion they might think you are rejecting them. At the moment you are only 15 and so perhaps they don't take you seriously but they will find it more hurtful as you get older. It's not a black and white world and we often have to put up with less than ideal outcomes. But what would an ideal outcome be? Would you like your parents and grandparents to become atheists? Maybe that's your ideal - but their ideal would be to have you become a devout Lutheran - what is more, they feel a moral obligation to encourage you that way. Perhaps they're wrong - who isn't wrong sometimes? - but it is not exactly unreasonable for people to fight for their beliefs. I think you have to respect them for that. As you get older, and after you have treated them with the courtesy they are due as the people who lovingly brought you up, you have a right to expect them to respect you. But there's still no need to shove your ideas in their faces. I suggest you go along with the religious bit although you can allow yourself to be reluctant (they're not expecting a miracle, are they?). They can't make you think differently, after all. If you're in church you could always do what I did and (discretely) work out which of the girls is the most attractive. I expect you won't be the only one, either. Meanwhile look around and give your ideas a little time to settle down. The web is not a bad place to look around but you should remember that it's also full of frustrated nuts who can't get anyone else to listen to them. I recommend trawling through the x-tian web and strongly recommend starting with Steve Lock's site. He's a friend of mine who I'll be passing this letter to. I don't think you'll mind if he sends his little bit of advice too. Steve Lock's site: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html Try my site too: http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts As you look around you will find people whose ideas you find you share. You should also work hard to stay open-minded about things. Certainly, don't let you ideas get set in stone too early. My advice would also be to get to know more about the Lutheran religion. If nothing else, knowing what you disagreee with is a wonderful way of finding out what you think. There is even the possibility that you may decide you're wrong and decide to practice Lutheranism yourself (I can't believe I'm saying this!). You're 15 and the sky's the limit! Let me know if you think I'm talking out of my hat. Good luck! Alan Urdaibay Hi there Dred! I received the mail below from Alan Urdaibay and thought I'd add my 2 cents as Alan suggested I might. Basically I would reiterate what Alan said, which from my experience and the pooled experience of others in similar situations, is an approach that seems to work. The question of how to "come out" to, or cope with the demands of, religious friends and relatives is a perennial question on some discussion lists and the general advice is to take it easily and slowly. This is especially relevant if you are not of independent status and don't wish to grossly upset those around you. Also it might not be kind to them, or productive, to be too "in your face" about beliefs - an approach that usually only alienates people. I know how upsetting it can be to have to sit through religious functions when you are not a "believer" but, since it appears you are interested in reading up on arguments about religion, being subjected to religion does at least make ones search into "what is this religion stuff is all about? Why do they believe it? What are the arguments against it? etc." far more passionate and relevant. Also you don't have that long to go before you will be off to college or work, where you can be a free spirit in deed as well as thought! You mentioned how astonishing it is that educated people can believe theism. Research into the psychology of belief, as well as the arguments for and against various religious positions, can be a fascinating endeavour and will help you understand why people may take the different positions they do. It may also help both to be more tolerant of others and understand and explain your own position better. I hope some of the links on my site might help you in this quest! Also, before discussing religion with your relatives (if you ever do), I would advise discussing or debating on various newsgroups or mailing lists on the Internet (maybe you are already doing this?) Although the quality of discussions is variable, you can sometimes meet educated xtians (like your Dad) and have intelligent worthwhile conversations. Such things are much easier with strangers than parents/relatives and it is surprising how open people are when online. (Expect much poor discussion too though!) That way you will discover what sort of arguments people use, how to have productive conversations and what just degenerates into destructive flaming! You might also want to balance your reading of atheist sites with theistic ones (especially any xtian sites about Lutheranism) as it will help you understand what they are thinking. Don't forget books too! Websites have a vast breadth of material, but sometimes you don't get that much depth (apart from my site of course :-) [I'm sure Steve was thinking of Atheism Central too! ... Alan]). Anyway, I hope that's of some use. Forgive me if this is stuff you already know! Best wishes, Steve ----------------------- Leaving Christianity: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html Mr. Urdaibay I had no idea that excommunication was such a long and involved process! Thanks for the advice, I know you're right. But about hurting my grandparents feelings: they are hardly both the loving individuals you think they are. My grandfather is great and I enjoy being with him, but he isn't quite as religiously inclined as my grandmother. My grandmother is schizophrenic, which isn't her fault, but nevertheless makes her into quite a monster occasionally. When she has an episode, she will often go into religious tirades, talking to unknown people. When I was little, I spent a lot of time with her and I resented how she would force her religion on me all the time. So even though she wouldn't be very happy (in fact, she disowned a son of hers because he's an atheist as well...), it was not too big a concern of mine. But it sounds like excommunication isn't a feasible alternative. Oh well... thanks for the help. Dred Scott I really don't care if you publish my e-mail or my name (Dred Scott, that is). My real name is *** ***** (don't use that one!) Dred Scott was a slave in the South after whom a very famous legal case was named (the Dred Scott Decision - you heard of it?). His master died and he petitioned to the government to be freed. The government denied his request, but luckily a man bought him and freed him immediately. Anyway, you can do whatever suits you. But if you do, it would be cool if you emailed me the URL so I could look at it :) Dred Scott |
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